Cold and Missing: Paul Skiba, Sarah Skiba, and Lorenzo Chivers

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The views and opinions expressed in Cold and Missing are exclusively those of the hosts.

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All parties mentioned are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

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Cold and Missing also contains adult themes and languages and is intended for a mature

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audience.

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Listener discretion is advised.

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Welcome back everyone to Cold and Missing.

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Welcome back everyone.

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I am your host, Ali McLaughlin-Sulkowski.

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And I am your co-host, Eli Sulkowski.

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Grateful husband to Miss Ali.

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Alrighty, so we are on a cold case.

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Missing.

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Damn.

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One day.

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I've got him.

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Yeah.

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We should keep a tally.

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Alright.

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Missing.

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I'm ready.

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So today we're going to be talking about the missing person case of Paul and Sarah Skiba

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and Lorenzo Chivers.

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And this takes place February 7, 1999 in Westminster, Colorado, which is a suburb of Denver.

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And just as a trigger warning at the top here, we are going to be talking about a young person

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today, as well as some graphic descriptions of evidence found.

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So I just want to give that warning right off the top.

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But first, let's learn a little bit about Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo.

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So Sarah, she's nine years old in 1999.

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She was born July 27, 1989, and she was four foot, five inches, and 80 pounds.

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Her family and friends describe her as friendly, outgoing, caring, and talkative.

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A young girl who enjoyed dancing, singing, school, animals, riding her bike around the

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neighborhood and rollerblading.

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She was always happy and always full of spunk.

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Paul is Sarah's dad.

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Paul, in 1999, is 39 years old, and he was born February 23, 1960.

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And he was six foot one and weighed 170 pounds.

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Paul is divorced from Sarah's mom, and Paul fought hard for his custody agreement with

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Sarah.

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So ultimately, he would have his time with Sarah every Wednesday, which meant that he

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would drive 100 miles every Wednesday to pick her up from school.

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And then Paul would always pick a hotel with a pool for them to stay at for the night.

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And then he got to see Sarah every other weekend and all summer break.

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He never missed a visit with Sarah, and he took his custody agreement very seriously.

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He's described as responsible, meticulous, outgoing, and a gentleman.

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Always wore a mustache, and friends said he was really into fashion, specifically going

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thrifting for designer jeans.

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And Paul owned Tough Movers in Westminster, Colorado, and a customer of his said, quote,

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if he said he was going to do something, he found a way to do it.

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If there was a decorating emergency or someone had to have something quickly, he would figure

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out a way to do it.

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Very seldom would he say, no, I can't help you, end quote.

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And that was Aaron Johnson of Aaron Johnson Antiques, who exclusively used Paul to move

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their antiques to their customers.

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Paul was also in a relationship with Teresa Donovan.

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The two had recently had a baby together, but the relationship was on the rocks and

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was described as on again and off again.

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And then Lorenzo in 1999 is 36 years old, and he was born November 5th, 1962.

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And he is 5'10", and 160 pounds.

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And he's described as a mellow and easygoing guy, could talk with anyone.

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He never met a stranger in his life.

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He was the father of two, a 15-year-old boy and a 12-year-old girl.

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And Lorenzo and their mother, Misha, were separated, but remained close and had a good

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co-parenting relationship.

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Lorenzo's son lived with him full time, and Lorenzo lived with Bobby Jo, who is Teresa

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Donovan's sister.

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And Lorenzo had worked for Paul at Tough Movers for a couple of months.

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So these are some of the events that led up to February 7th.

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On Friday, February 5th, Paul calls his mother Sharon, who had been taking care of some affairs

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in Minnesota, but Sharon lives with Paul, and at this time, Teresa was also living with

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them.

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So Paul calls his mother, who is visiting Minnesota, and asks her if she'll come home

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as soon as possible, because Paul had asked Teresa to move out by Sunday night.

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On Saturday, February 6th, 1999, Paul is watching his best friend and employee, Jerry Bybee's

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11-year-old son, while Jerry is on a moving job.

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When Jerry picks his son up, he asks Paul if he could take tomorrow off, which is Sunday,

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so he could get together with his siblings and order flowers for their grandmother's

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memorial service.

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Paul says no problem, and he'll cover for Jerry, even though that means he'll have

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to take Sarah to work with him, because Sarah's visiting him for the weekend.

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When Jerry and his son return home, his son tells his dad that he and Sarah had stayed

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outside in a playhouse to stay away from a loud argument that Paul and Teresa were having

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inside the house.

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So this is Sunday, February 7th, 1999, and this is the last day that anyone sees Paul,

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Sarah, or Lorenzo.

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So Paul and Sarah head out for the day starting at 8.30 a.m.

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At 10.30, Lorenzo, Paul, and Sarah arrive at their first moving job for the day in Thornton,

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Colorado.

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At around 12.50, all of them stop for lunch in Lakewood, Colorado.

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After lunch, the trio head to Morrison, Colorado for another moving job.

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It's reported that around 6.15, Lorenzo, Paul, and Sarah are back at Tough Movers.

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And at around 6.22, Sarah makes a phone call.

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And CNN reports that Sarah called a 12-year-old relative of Teresa Donovan's, and Sarah told

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them that they were returning the truck and that they would be home soon.

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When Paul and Sarah fail to return home, Teresa begins calling police, but Teresa says the

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police don't take her very seriously.

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Bobby Jo also starts calling the police when Lorenzo fails to return home.

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So that's Sunday, February 7th.

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On Monday, February 8th, Teresa calls Paul's mom, Sharon, telling her that Paul and Sarah

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had not arrived home the night before.

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Sharon calls police who tell her that Paul had probably taken off with Sarah and nothing

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was seriously wrong.

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Police tell Sharon that Teresa and Bobby Jo had already called a number of times and that

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they were aware of it.

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And Sharon says, quote, this is my first phone call and there's something drastically wrong.

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My son was supposed to call me on Sunday, end quote.

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Michelle, this is Sarah's mom, also calls police in the morning to report Sarah missing.

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Now, initially, Michelle thought that Paul had taken Sarah because Michelle had mentioned

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to Paul that she was thinking about moving out of state.

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So the Grand County Sheriff's Department actually issues an arrest warrant for Paul for parental

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abduction.

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But police do not believe that Sarah is in any danger because she's with her dad.

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Lorenzo's son calls his mother to tell her that his dad didn't come home last night,

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which was unusual.

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He always told his children where he was going to be and when to expect him home.

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Misha asked to talk to Bobby Jo, who said, quote, I know he's not coming home.

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I know something terrible has happened to him, end quote.

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So this is all happening Monday morning.

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My friends are raising the alarm.

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Now, Jerry, this is Paul's best friend and employee.

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Jerry arrives at Tough Movers between 930 and 10 a.m.

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Jerry, Paul and Lorenzo were all scheduled to work a job that day.

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So Jerry noticed right away that the company's large moving truck was parked front first

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and crooked when Paul always backed it into a specific spot.

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He says, quote, Paul was a neat freak, anal about everything.

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So I'm thinking, oh, I can't wait to hear why the truck's parked like that because

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Paul would have a story.

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That guy could tell a story about anything.

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He described things like nobody else could.

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He described food to you and you could actually taste it.

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I was waiting for him to come in ranting about something that had gone wrong.

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It looked like somebody had just pulled in the yard at 50 miles per hour and hit the

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brakes, end quote.

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And that's Jerry by the Jerry also notices that the front gate padlock had been changed.

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So Jerry was unable to enter the lot because he didn't have a key for this new padlock.

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Jerry thought it was strange, but Paul would always change the locks after he fired someone.

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So he thought maybe this would explain the truck.

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Maybe Paul had to fire somebody and he changed the padlocks last night.

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But when Paul and Lorenzo failed to show up for work at all, Jerry also calls the police

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on Wednesday, February 10th.

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So just a few days, the trio has been missing.

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A Westminster police officer meets Jerry at Tough Movers and the police asked Jerry to

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open the gate.

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Jerry tells the officer he doesn't have a key and doesn't want to cut the lock off in

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case it's evidence.

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Annoyed, the police officer slams his car into the fence and jumps onto the hood and

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over the gate.

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He asked Jerry if he was coming.

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So Jerry follows this cop up and over.

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Jerry points out a puddle of motor oil partly covered with plywood that had not been there

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before.

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Jerry points this out to the police officer and the officer says, quote, can you prove

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that he didn't change his oil?

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End quote.

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Jerry then went and checked the truck that was parked funny without touching it.

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So Jerry looks into the cab and noticed it was very clean.

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And he said, quote, that's unusual right there.

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The truck's clean.

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We live in these trucks.

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End quote.

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When Jerry points this out to the officer, the cop grabs the door handle and whips it

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open.

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Jerry said, quote, I feel he destroyed more evidence than he was willing to look at.

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To him, nothing unusual there.

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I was disgusted with him.

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End quote.

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So the officer leaves Tough Movers unconvinced that a crime had taken place.

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On Thursday, February 11th, Lorenzo's son had been staying with his mother since his

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father hadn't come home.

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And so Misha took him to Lorenzo's house so that way he could get some of his clothes.

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But when they got there, they found that Bobby Jo had packed up the son's entire room and

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put everything by the front door.

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On Saturday, February 13th, Sharon arrives back in Colorado from Minnesota.

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And she had been begging the police all week to look for them.

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But police insist that Paul took off with Sarah and would be back soon.

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Sharon tries to explain that Paul was so careful with the custody agreement, he would never

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drop Sarah off late and he wouldn't jeopardize it by doing something like this.

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When Sharon returns home, she actually hires a helicopter pilot to take her around to look

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for Paul's car.

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She had the pilot fly over Tough Movers and also over water because Teresa had been to

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a psychic that told her Paul and Sarah were dead and Paul's car would be by a gravelly

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area near a lake or river.

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So Sharon has the helicopter pilot fly over these types of areas, but she doesn't find

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anything.

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Sunday, February 14th, so this is one week they have been missing, Paul's friend, Rich

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Lesmeister, receives a call from Teresa saying that Paul, Sarah and Lorenzo were missing.

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This is the first time Rich had heard of them missing.

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Not only was Rich a friend of Paul's, but Rich also worked as an auto mechanic and would

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work on Paul's moving vans and trucks.

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So he was very familiar with the employees there as well.

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So Rich and his wife, Carol, spend the morning handing out missing person flyers.

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And then that afternoon, Rich and Carol meet Sharon at Tough Movers.

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They tell Sharon to wait outside the fence and him and Carol hop the fence.

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Rich had been at Tough Movers recently working on rebuilding a motor for a 1978 Chevy moving

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van.

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So he was going to see if anything looked out of place, kind of similar to what Jerry

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and the police officer had done.

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This time, however, Rich and Carol, they find a smear of blood on the big moving truck door

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and they describe it as a print from a bloody shirt sleeve.

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And then Rich finds the van that he had been working on and finds multiple bullet holes

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in the side of the truck.

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The exterior of that same truck had a bloodstained smear across it.

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And then also a piece of a human skull was lying near the windshield.

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So once they find this piece of skull, they climb back over the fence and tell Sharon

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it doesn't look good and that they need to call police.

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Sharon first calls her other son, Gordy, and Paul's father, her ex-husband, that they

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need to come to Colorado as quickly as they could because Gordy and her ex-husband, they

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are back in Minnesota.

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And then she calls police.

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Now it takes a while for the police to arrive out there because again, they believe that

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it is a parental abduction, even though that doesn't explain why Lorenzo is gone in all

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of this.

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So Westminster police arrive at Tough Movers and basically an argument breaks out between

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police and Paul's family and friends.

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Rich says, quote, they threatened to arrest us if we didn't leave because there was no

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crime committed there and we should all go home, end quote.

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This argument happens for a while too.

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And Rich tries to explain to police that the big moving truck was never clean, but it was

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spotless except for blood on the door.

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And what about the bullet holes in the van?

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They say that somebody could have cleaned the truck and cut themselves and left blood

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behind and that the van could have been shot at while driving around.

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Rich has to point out to the police that the van didn't have an engine in it because he

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was rebuilding it and hadn't put it back in yet.

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So this fight and argument with police lasts so long that Sharon has to leave to go to

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the airport to go pick up her son and ex-husband.

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So while Sharon leaves, more of Paul's friends arrive at Tough Movers to basically argue

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with police.

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And finally, police are like, okay, we'll look into it.

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But now they're arguing over whose jurisdiction it's in.

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Is it Westminster's?

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Who should be taking care of this?

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So now that's the argument that police are having with people.

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00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:12,840
After midnight, a patrol car from Thornton PD shows up and it's decided that Thornton

234
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,840
PD would take the case since the missing persons report was made with them.

235
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:23,840
So at 3 a.m. Thornton police take down everyone's name and information and tells them all to

236
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:24,840
leave.

237
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:31,080
Thornton police were going to wait for tow trucks to take the van and truck as evidence.

238
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,180
Sharon asked them before she leaves to secure the gate when they're done.

239
00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:40,040
So that lasts into Monday morning, but later that day on Monday, Sharon arrives back at

240
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:45,600
Tough Movers the next morning to find the gate wide open and no crime scene tape and

241
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,640
the place completely unsecure.

242
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:53,400
And this is also the first time any news reports are ran about them being missing, but they're

243
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:58,680
still calling it a parental abduction despite Lorenzo also being missing.

244
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:05,080
On Wednesday, February 17th, Jerry finds Lorenzo's vehicle parked at an apartment complex a

245
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:11,080
few blocks from Tough Movers, but there were no fingerprints found in his vehicle, not

246
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:12,620
even Lorenzo's.

247
00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:18,520
And then on Saturday, February 27th, Denver police find Paul's vehicle at an apartment

248
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:24,280
complex in Denver, about 10 miles from where Lorenzo's car was found.

249
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:30,420
Inside Paul's car were his personal belongings and Sarah's backpack filled with Beanie Babies.

250
00:16:30,420 --> 00:16:36,420
It was also noted that Paul's usually tidy car was covered in mud, but again, there were

251
00:16:36,420 --> 00:16:40,680
no fingerprints found in his car, not even Paul's.

252
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:46,820
In March of 1999, Sharon wanted to keep Tough Movers operating so Paul would have something

253
00:16:46,820 --> 00:16:48,440
to come back to.

254
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,900
Sharon asked police if they were done processing the trucks, if she could have them back.

255
00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:57,800
Police returned the trucks, but the van still had a piece of scalp on it.

256
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,800
Sharon asked, quote, do you normally give back a vehicle that still has evidence on

257
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:02,800
it?

258
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:03,800
End quote.

259
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:09,200
So police returned to Tough Movers, but this time they also have the Colorado Bureau of

260
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,880
Investigation, the CBI.

261
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:17,400
Police and CBI will conduct a luminal test and a luminal test will detect the presence

262
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,160
of blood, even if it's been cleaned up.

263
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:25,600
And the oil spot that Jerry had noticed the first time he was there with police was actually

264
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,860
blood mixed with oil.

265
00:17:27,860 --> 00:17:33,860
In mid-March, police and the CBI state that they have found evidence suggesting foul play.

266
00:17:33,860 --> 00:17:40,540
So along with the blood spot that was mixed with motor oil, there was evidence of a large

267
00:17:40,540 --> 00:17:46,080
amount of blood covering the back of the truck and cab, and that is discovered with a luminal

268
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,080
test.

269
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:52,840
DNA analysis will show the blood to be a mix of Paul and Sarah's, and due to the amount

270
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,760
found, police believe they are both dead.

271
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,320
The scalp piece belonged to Paul.

272
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,560
Hair found on the fender belonged to Sarah.

273
00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:06,360
Lorenzo's DNA was not found at the lot, but police believe he could have been killed in

274
00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:09,000
a way that would not have left blood.

275
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,480
Witnesses will come forward and say they had heard a woman screaming the night that they

276
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:14,520
disappeared.

277
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:20,700
And Teresa will tell Jerry that she went to the lot that night, but not to tell police.

278
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:26,200
Other witnesses say they saw a truck leaving the lot between six or seven times that night

279
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,320
before returning around midnight.

280
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:33,440
Police therefore believe that the bodies could, quote, not be more than a couple of hours

281
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,080
away, end quote.

282
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,760
An extension ramp, straps, and blankets were missing from one of the trucks, and police

283
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:44,080
believe that these were used to sink the bodies into a body of water.

284
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:49,600
Police believed water, because vegetation found in the radiator of the truck would indicate

285
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,160
that it had been driven near water.

286
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:59,060
In April of 1999, so this is two months, Teresa will take Sharon to court to gain control

287
00:18:59,060 --> 00:19:01,120
of Paul's estates.

288
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,600
And there was a lot of drama involving this, and I won't get too much into it.

289
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:10,060
Ultimately, Sharon will remain in control of Paul's estate and not Teresa.

290
00:19:10,060 --> 00:19:14,220
In March of 2000, Sharon dissolves Tough Movers.

291
00:19:14,220 --> 00:19:18,120
She wasn't able to keep the business going like she had wanted to.

292
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:24,680
On February 7th, 2002, Misha wanted answers for herself and Lorenzo's children.

293
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:31,500
So she sits down with Detective Pat Long, and he tells Misha and her son that Paul had

294
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:36,960
been using his business as a front for narcotics and got tangled up with the wrong folks, and

295
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,400
Lorenzo was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

296
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,720
Police will also begin using the story in the media, saying Paul, Sara, and Lorenzo

297
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:51,640
were, quote, probably victims of drug violence, end quote, saying Paul, quote, wasn't a major

298
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,880
drug lord, but had a small client base that he sold marijuana to.

299
00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,120
Paul's family and friends said he smoked marijuana, but he was not a dealer.

300
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:04,240
Quote, he's not the person they made him out to be at all.

301
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:09,080
Yeah, he dabbled and shit, but he was by no means a kingpin, end quote, and that is his

302
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,320
friend Rich.

303
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:17,240
Teresa will also go on the Montel Williams show and say drug dealers had a vendetta against

304
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:18,240
Paul.

305
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,320
Paul had rented parking spaces to them, but had recently stopped.

306
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,800
She says, quote, they sold Paul drugs, and they were the only people that could have

307
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:27,800
killed him.

308
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:33,040
I don't know if it was over the cars or anger over Paul trying to get over the coke, end

309
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,640
quote, and that is Teresa.

310
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:41,360
And then this is his friend Jerry Bybee, he says, quote, as far as theories, there's a

311
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,160
million of them out there.

312
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,420
They all make sense.

313
00:20:44,420 --> 00:20:46,160
They all don't make sense.

314
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,920
Paul was a great guy, but he did have his enemies, people he had fired because they'd

315
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,600
gotten to an argument or something would get broken, end quote.

316
00:20:54,600 --> 00:21:01,680
And one of the people that had a vendetta against Paul, who Paul had fired, was Teresa's

317
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,120
brother, Tom.

318
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,920
Paul had fired Tom a few months before he disappeared.

319
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:12,920
After Paul disappeared, Tom would threaten Jerry saying, quote, you're next, you're

320
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:18,400
next, end quote, while throwing rocks at a tough movers truck Jerry was driving.

321
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:24,280
Tom would also call Sharon to tell her he was glad Paul was dead and that him and Sarah

322
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,320
had been shot in the head and Sharon was next.

323
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:33,320
Tom will eventually take Sharon and Jerry to court over money he was owed and at court,

324
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,640
Tom, quote, actually looked at Sharon, made his hands like a gun and motioned like he

325
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,420
shot her, end quote.

326
00:21:40,420 --> 00:21:45,880
And that was Bob Martinez, who was at court that day and had also worked with Paul.

327
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:51,800
In 2005, family and friends raised money to put up a billboard near tough movers trying

328
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,360
to get the word out about Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo.

329
00:21:56,360 --> 00:22:02,040
That same day, police will announce that the case will move from Thornton Police to Westminster

330
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,040
Police.

331
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:08,040
Thornton had had the case classified as a missing persons case, but Westminster will

332
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,120
classify it as a homicide.

333
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:15,400
In December of 2006, this is over seven years they've been missing, Paul and Sarah are

334
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,600
legally declared dead in the court system.

335
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:25,040
And then in February of 2019, at the 20 year mark, police announced that they are reviewing

336
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,200
the case and basically starting from scratch.

337
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:35,240
A few years before they had done analysis on fingerprints they had been able to lift,

338
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:36,840
but nothing came from that.

339
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,440
But in this new review of the case, detectives had found two new witnesses that had come

340
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:47,080
forward and they also had planned on using updated DNA technology.

341
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:52,080
Police believe that quote, all three were murdered either at the truck yard or a second

342
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,240
location and detectives believe their bodies were removed from the yard in a moving truck

343
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,600
to an unknown location, end quote.

344
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:07,640
But that was February of 2019 and as of 2023, there's been no updates on the case, no DNA

345
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,540
hits that have been talked about.

346
00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:15,520
So that is all we know about the final days of Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo.

347
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:24,820
If you know anything, you are encouraged to call Westminster police at 303-658-4360.

348
00:23:24,820 --> 00:23:34,520
If you want to leave a tip but remain anonymous, you can call Crime Stoppers at 720-913-7867.

349
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:42,040
And sources for today's podcast come from Westworld.com, specifically a 2008 article

350
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:47,000
titled A Cold Case Frozen in Time, which I'm actually going to link in our show notes.

351
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,440
So if you want to know more about the legal battle between Teresa and Sharon or just some

352
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:57,140
more details surrounding the case, this article really gets into everything up until 2008.

353
00:23:57,140 --> 00:24:03,420
The Denver Post, cnn.com, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, Westminster

354
00:24:03,420 --> 00:24:06,960
Police and the Charlie Project.

355
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,680
Okay.

356
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,680
Any immediate thoughts about the case jumping out?

357
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:19,760
Well, now what is all this about?

358
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:30,360
How do some of those specific things, like how does that happen when law enforcement

359
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:31,360
exists?

360
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:33,880
Oh yeah, law enforcement.

361
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,880
And has a...

362
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,960
Do your job.

363
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:43,760
Don't give something back with evidence on it.

364
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,400
It's just so...

365
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,120
I have no words, honey, honestly.

366
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:50,120
Yeah, I...

367
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:57,280
I was flabbergasted, shocked, angry, all those things.

368
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:58,420
When police's...

369
00:24:58,420 --> 00:25:01,520
Their first reaction was to ram the gate with their car.

370
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,520
I was like, oh, this is...

371
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,520
Well, this is...

372
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,440
Well, this went in a very different direction.

373
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:10,440
Yeah.

374
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,400
Law enforcement really dropped the ball on this one from the beginning.

375
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,520
Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with you on that one, honey.

376
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:18,520
Yeah.

377
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,440
Just saying it was a parental abduction, but it's like none of that explains why Lorenzo

378
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:23,440
was gone.

379
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:24,440
Yeah.

380
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,520
So sure, that's a good thing to maybe start at, but...

381
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:35,920
Yeah, they just kind of treated it like a buffet situation because there was some evidence

382
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,960
there to fill in a narrative.

383
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,960
They're like, well, here, here, here.

384
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:41,960
Here we go.

385
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,760
Yeah, it was just wild.

386
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,560
And then the first cop there that went with Jerry, Jerry's pointing out all this stuff

387
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,400
and the cop's like, well...

388
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:55,000
They were just explaining things away that were obvious signs.

389
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,040
The van was shot out while it was moving.

390
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,080
And it's like, the van doesn't have an engine in it.

391
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,620
It hasn't moved.

392
00:26:03,620 --> 00:26:06,080
This guy is rebuilding the engine right here.

393
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:07,080
He's testifying.

394
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,440
I have not put that engine back in that car.

395
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:10,920
It cannot operate.

396
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,900
Those bullet holes were not there when I was last working on it.

397
00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:15,400
Those were done here.

398
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,400
Yeah.

399
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,520
And they were like, it was shot out while it was driving.

400
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,680
So after that, then they start fighting about the jurisdiction.

401
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,040
But it was crazy to me that...

402
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,000
But then even that, that it like...

403
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,320
You're wasting so much time.

404
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:30,320
Yeah.

405
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,840
You're tearing off into that direction about like...

406
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,400
And at that point, a week had already passed.

407
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:36,400
But that's like...

408
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,880
I also thought like, is that what they wanted?

409
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,240
Just like causing a bunch of like red tape.

410
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,240
Yeah.

411
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,120
I don't know.

412
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:48,480
I like want to ask like, what else were you doing during that week?

413
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,360
Was there like some major crime events happening where you absolutely could not look for these

414
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:53,360
people?

415
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:54,360
I don't think there were, you know?

416
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:55,360
Did it fall during 9-11?

417
00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:56,360
No, it was 1999.

418
00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:57,360
You would have noticed.

419
00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:58,360
Okay.

420
00:26:58,360 --> 00:26:59,360
Yeah, it was 1999.

421
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:00,360
So...

422
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,880
And I was like looking at the newspapers.

423
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,000
There were no like major articles of like major police presence needed.

424
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,000
Yeah.

425
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,800
Or just like something wild.

426
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:11,800
Yeah.

427
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:18,600
Nothing that would require all of the police officers to not...

428
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:19,960
For nobody to look into this.

429
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,700
Like there was no reason nobody should have looked into this.

430
00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:25,640
From the beginning, they were like, Sarah's fine.

431
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,780
She's with her dad.

432
00:27:27,780 --> 00:27:30,360
There's a lot of police incompetence on this one.

433
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:31,360
Yeah.

434
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:33,520
I think it's important to name that here.

435
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:34,520
Yeah.

436
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:40,240
When you were describing her, Sarah, you said spunky and like some other sweet things and

437
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,000
I got teary eyed because it reminded me of...

438
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:49,240
Well, we have lots of nieces and nephews, but that's instantly who I thought about,

439
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:50,240
you know?

440
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,320
And just that like the senseless violence.

441
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,360
The backpack full of Beanie Babies, like that detail as a 90s kid.

442
00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:03,080
I was just like, yeah, that's real.

443
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,200
Like that was a real person with a real life and real things.

444
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,120
Yeah, like really, really like connected you to that moment.

445
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:15,440
Because I remember the Beanie Baby craze and every once in a while we'd like stand in line

446
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:21,520
for one when there was like a cool one that came out, like a tie-dye one or something.

447
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,640
But yeah, I mean, it's...

448
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,960
No one should go missing, but like children aren't supposed to go missing, man.

449
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:31,960
You know?

450
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,920
Like, kids aren't supposed to be lost.

451
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:34,920
Yeah.

452
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:35,920
Well, that's the thing.

453
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,680
Like, there was a child lost in this case and it's like that's a crime.

454
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,560
That's something that you have to investigate.

455
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:43,560
Yeah.

456
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:51,120
Like, dude, I'm getting emotional because it's hard for me to like accept that there

457
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,840
are people out there who are in like...

458
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,280
Who can do something about it and are just like, we don't care.

459
00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,280
Or I don't want to.

460
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,440
Like, why are you there?

461
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,000
Why are you there then?

462
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,000
Right.

463
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,800
They think just because she was possibly with her dad, but it's like, again, that doesn't

464
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:14,280
explain this third missing person that this is wildly outside of his routine.

465
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,920
He always tells his children when to expect him, where he's going, what he's doing.

466
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,360
And he always tells the mother of his children.

467
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:25,720
And even if it wasn't, you know, like a mass effort, like multiple people looking into

468
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,800
it, like there wasn't even like one or two people who were like, okay, we're going to

469
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:35,440
like take this and like pedal to the metal, really figure out what happened here.

470
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,400
And like, do like look into it, like not even that?

471
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,560
Well, what I find in my research again and again is that if you are an adult, you are

472
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:45,840
allowed to go missing.

473
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,240
It's not a crime.

474
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:56,120
So police can't count it as a solved case unless a crime has been committed.

475
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:02,840
So it's not up on their priorities because that doesn't ultimately count for like cases

476
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,680
closed at the end of the year when they get their funding, their rewards, the whatever's,

477
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,400
you know, all of that.

478
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,840
So to them, it's like, well, that's not my job.

479
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,200
That's kind of what it feels like in a lot of these cases is they're like, well, unless

480
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:18,440
a crime has happened.

481
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:19,440
Yeah.

482
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,640
But like people, people call, people call cops like heroes.

483
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,280
If that's like what you're signing up for, if that's what you want to be, then like actually

484
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,280
be one.

485
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:36,040
A hero like steps up and does the work outside of whatever you are being rewarded for.

486
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,120
Like that doesn't make any sense to me.

487
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,200
That doesn't make any sense to me.

488
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:48,480
I do not understand how anyone would become a cop other than wanting to not to police

489
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,480
people, but to actually serve and protect the community that you live in and that are

490
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:54,480
a part of.

491
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,640
Like I don't understand how anyone wants that job and doesn't want solely that.

492
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:06,080
I don't understand how anyone would want anything else but that in being a police officer.

493
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:13,280
Like power control, like any of that stuff that feels really bad to me if I find that

494
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,020
out about a person, you know?

495
00:31:16,020 --> 00:31:21,960
So I guess that's, I feel like I'm not being super clear about this, but like because like

496
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,480
I'm, I'm, I have emotions about it.

497
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:31,080
It just, it just feels like these people were left behind, you know?

498
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,080
Yeah.

499
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,200
But yeah, like thank you so much for sharing this with us.

500
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,840
Yeah, I had not heard of this case before and I couldn't believe it.

501
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:40,840
Me either.

502
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:47,440
I mean, every, every case, you know, we come across, it's like, how have I not known about

503
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:48,440
this?

504
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:55,840
And it really makes you, it gives you some perspective on how truly wild the world is.

505
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:01,360
And honestly, doing this with you, honey, it really makes me, like when I'm out and about

506
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,000
in the world and I mean, you know me, I kind of do this anyway, but I really do like think

507
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,240
more about like people's experiences and like what they're maybe going through even in that

508
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:17,180
moment because like, you know, we've talked about so many different, like lovely people

509
00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:19,520
who are no longer here or like missing.

510
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,440
And I just like, as I'm moving through the world, I'm, I'm finding more delight in just

511
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,240
like all the people around me, you know?

512
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,040
And that like, like I love humans and like, yeah, like everyone should be here and like

513
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,040
thriving and happy, you know?

514
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:44,240
And you wouldn't think that like a podcast that involves true crime would do that, but

515
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:45,240
ours does.

516
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,240
It makes me, it makes me really happy.

517
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,240
Oh, thanks baby.

518
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:50,240
Yeah.

519
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:58,320
But again, that's the case of Paul and Sarah Skiba and Lorenzo Chivers.

520
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:05,760
Again if you know anything, please call the Westminster Police at 303-658-4360 or you can

521
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:13,000
call Crime Stoppers to remain anonymous at 720-913-7867.

522
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,040
And please follow us on Instagram.

523
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:21,800
We will be posting photos of Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo as well as some other pictures

524
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,640
that pertain to the case.

525
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:30,000
From there in the link in our bio, you can find us on all your favorite podcast platforms.

526
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,320
You're listening to us right now.

527
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:37,400
So go ahead, like, subscribe, five stars, leave us a review if you're an Apple podcast.

528
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,400
We appreciate it.

529
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:39,400
Appreciate it.

530
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,960
And tell your friends about our podcast.

531
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,840
We really want to get these cases out to as many people as possible to try to get them

532
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,420
closed.

533
00:33:48,420 --> 00:33:51,000
So tell your friends about it if you're enjoying it.

534
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,440
That would mean the world to me, to us.

535
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:55,440
Yeah.

536
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,440
And...

537
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,800
But it's okay that you said me because you, you built this honey.

538
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:01,800
It's okay.

539
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:02,800
It does mean the world to you.

540
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,800
This is your, this is your calling, you know?

541
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:06,800
Yeah.

542
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:07,800
Yeah.

543
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,280
But yeah, that's it.

544
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,000
Have a good week and stay safe, y'all.

545
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,160
Stay safe, y'all.